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E76: How to deal with a defensive spouse, with Dovid Feldman

Our first returning guest, Dovid Feldman, is here to talk marriage and relationships. A licenced family and marriage therapist, Dovid helps us learn the best ways to communicate to eliminate defensiveness, how to show up in your marriage, and how to reflect on your own behaviours and emotions. Join them for this very special episode. 

You can find David on Twitter at @dovidfeldman or over at his blog, https://dovidfeldman.com

If you want to read the article on communication that Dovid mentions in the episode, you can find it here https://dovidfeldman.com/effective-communication-skills/

From Long Distance to Marriage – Episode 76 transcript

Rich	Hi everyone, and welcome to episode 76 from Long Distance to Marriage. This week we’ve got a really special episode. We are joined by Dovid Feldman. Who you may recall from episode 47 where we dealt with how to avoid criticism in your relationship. Today, on a similar topic but we looked at how you might cope with or avoid defensiveness.
Aindrea	How to communicate better, to prevent defensiveness.
Rich	Yeah. As you will find out soon enough. If you are with someone who has a tendency to be defensive or equally you are the person who gets defensive, Dovid gives some really useful practical tips on how you can avoid that from the outset. Amongst some other things as well. We will get into that shortly, but we just want to ask that if you enjoy the episode or enjoy us in general, we would really appreciate it if you could leave a review or rating on your favourite platform and don’t forget to subscribe. And on that we will leave you to listen to Dovid.
Aindrea	Enjoy.
Aindrea	So, we’re back with a returning special guest, we have Dovid Feldman. So, if you haven’t listened to episode 47 then you should absolutely check it out, our first chat with Dovid. How are you doing? Staying safe? Doing well?
Dovid	Oh yes. Definitely.
Rich	And thank you for returning by the way. You’re certainly one of the most popular guests we’ve had on. We are always saying listen to this episode because I really found it valuable. We still talk about it, don’t we? Like outside the podcasts, we talk about it in our everyday marriage conversations. The hierarchy of needs. It’s gone beyond talking about it as well. Certainly, I think about it. There are just some things we just think that’s not the heel I am going to die on, to sort of borrow your phrase from the episode. It was a really powerful conversation for us, so we are really pleased that you wanted to join us again.
Aindrea	It’s so powerful but some of the stuff was so simple. I do find myself asking the questions we talked about. The example we used was leaving towels and dirty towels on the floor. Both of us have our moments of leaving stuff lying around. There are multiple occasions where I look at it and think.
Dovid	Bad Rich?
Aindrea	We’re home constantly now. There’s just so much more to deal with at home. But I’ll look at it, whatever it is, and think, what will have the easiest outcome? This will take 3 seconds to do this myself or it can be a half hour long debate. So, I will just do it.
Dovid	You’re lucky it’s only half an hour.
Aindrea	We’re concise.
Rich	I don’t think it’s going to be a prerequisite to episode 47 but I think anyone who wants to listen to this, it would be worth checking that one out too. The title of that one was about dealing with criticism which ties nicely into what we are going to talk about today. But Dovid if you would like to give a quick introduction, how you’re doing, what you’re up to, for the listeners who aren’t familiar with you.
Dovid	Sure. My name is Dovid Feldman. I am a licensed family and marriage therapist. I practice here in the state of Illinois in the United States. I also take clients all over the world. Some of my favourite coming from Greece right now, so that’s exciting. I have clients in Africa, Canada and of course the US. It’s been a crazy ride. I started out on twitter about 2 years ago, really putting out a lot of my thoughts and observations. Many of which stem from my client sessions. It’s been wonderful, my account has grown, I have made some really nice friends, I connect very deeply with people who chose to reach out to me. So, I have a bunch of workshops for couples and singles. Id o focus mainly on marriage situations but also people in regular relationships, even singles preparing to get married or dealing with personal issues. One client I have right now is working with me on her family, like her kids, and that’s been a lot of fun. You can reach me easy on Twitter at @DovidFeldman, or you can visit my blog which is really my pride and joy because I spent so much time writing articles and putting out content, most is just a 3 to 5 minute read but they are so informative and I use them a lot in my practice. I just quickly send an article who is dealing with a particular issue. So, you can just go there and say hi.
Rich	Twitter is where I first found you. You’re one of those accounts where you’re always in my feed, because of the amount of people who share what you post. Quite often I will open twitter and you’re the first post I see. Which is obviously a really nice indicator that what you’re saying is resonating with people, they want to share it.
Dovid	Yeah, it’s really nice. I started out on Twitter as like a Red Pill groupie. I didn’t know anything about twitter. I was a family and marriage therapist. I wanted to work with men, so next thing I find myself on twitter, in a Mani sphere corner of Twitter. I am tweeting around, and somehow my messages were resonating with all these guys. At some point I was getting into an argument with this man and next thing I was blocked.
Rich	Yeah, they blocked me too.
Dovid	All of a sudden, I had this revelatory moment of I can’t function in this arena where I feel like my hands are tied behind my back and I am speaking with someone who has such an opposite perspective than me. I don’t wanna spend my life fighting so then I started putting up my own stuff. It was probably the best thing that happened to me, getting blocked, as I was able to generate my own audience. It was been great and so meaningful to me, so I am glad you guys have been a part of that too.
Rich	Yeah us too. Twitter is an interesting one. People will argue with themselves on Twitter. It’s such a funny platform. But you can really create it to have positive influence. You’re one of those accounts. One of the things we’ve mentioned quite a bit on this podcast is, marriage is often spoke about negatively. Like why would you get married? And stuff like that.
Aindrea	And pop culture too.
Rich	Yeah. So, there’s some accounts, like the account we have for this, that’s more positive about it. So, they’re definitely out there, and it does make accounts like yours more valuable. You have to dig to find them, there’s not millions but then you come across one and you’re like I’m not crazy for thinking like this. My wife isn’t just waiting to leave. It’s a funny thing. Anyway, I am conscious that we don’t have you for a huge amount of time so if we dive into the topic. We put on Instagram on twitter asking people if they had anything, they wanted to ask you, what they would ask a therapist if they had an opportunity. And a question we thought would be a valuable one for people is how you would deal with a defensive partner.
Aindrea	Communication particularly.
Rich	Yeah. So, we can dive into a different perspective on that. For anyone who has listened to our previous episode on Coronavirus, where we mentioned people are spending a lot more time together.
Aindrea	Spending time together in a very limited stressful confined way. We spend a lot of time together out of choice, we like each other, we chose to do things together. But usually that incorporates getting out the house, going off and seeing things. I can see how people who don’t usually spend time together and are being forced into that situation are struggling.
Rich	What I love about this question is that it works on so many levels. A lot of our listeners were or still are long distance, and you’re still going to have those couples which one person is defensive. If you are long distance in an argument, they can just put their phone down and you’re blocked out, you don’t know where they are and what’s going on. At least you know if you’re together, and they storm off, you still know they’re in a house.  I saw something, which is really toxic but it’s every time we have an argument, they block me on social media till they calm down. Which is not something you can do in real life so the question of dealing with defensiveness, I just wanted to front that question with some variance.
Aindrea	Absolutely.
Rich	So over to you.
Dovid	Sure. Defensiveness is out of all the communications issues, one of the simpler ones to deal with. The reason why is because, first we have to back off and take a look at the overall structure of communication between a man and a woman. Basically, it’s well known in our industry that 95% of the reaction you’re going to get is based off the way you’ve initiate the conversation.  That means that I can guarantee the way I am going to be responded to is by the way I show up in communication. I’m not saying there’s not people who have innate defensive tendencies. Before we get into that, the vast majority of circumstances where defensiveness shows up is because the person initiating the conversation is acting as a catalyst for that defensiveness to appear. And they don’t realise. It doesn’t mean that they’re bad people, or don’t have something important to say, or mean that they’re wrong. It just means that there’s certain ways and triggers that we use commonly that will evoke a defensive response.  And how much more so when it’s from partner to partner where there’s so much emotional tension and the relationship is valuable so there’s so much at stake, often times the conversations can be deeply personal, so that’s the first thing. So, we need to realise that if we’re finding our partner defensive, there’s a really good chance that on accident, we are trying to communicate something important that unfortunately we’re using a methodology that’s instigating that response.
Aindrea	Yeah. It seems so simple when you say it like that but it’s so powerful. When Rich and I got married, my brother had also got married a few months before. We had obviously different strains, we had a lot going on and a lot of change.  I just felt like Rich and I couldn’t talk, couldn’t resolve anything without it becoming a huge argument. One day I called my brother and just said it’s really hard, I don’t know how to talk without arguing, just venting a little bit. He said I’m not that much further along than you in this marriage game, as far as I can tell, it’s all about saying what you need to say but in the way your partner can hear it. I think a lot of people feel like I don’t wanna have to walk on eggshells, but you have to be mindful of your partners feelings too. You don’t want to hurt them feelings or make them feel defensive, you are just trying to communicate something you need. It just takes a little bit of thought of what can I say that gets my point across that doesn’t have to be snide or sarcastic.
Rich	I think it takes a lot of practice. Like I know if I say something in a certain way then you will take it badly. Not that I have said it with any malice, but I know it’s not the way you hear it. Maybe my tone.
Aindrea	That takes time, getting to know each other on what works and what doesn’t.
Dovid	For sure. All the things you’re mentioning, like being thoughtful and trying to get your point across without offending the other person. That’s all true but on a more macro level. On a practical level, there’s actually simple steps you can take that could practically guarantee that you won’t get a defensive response.
Aindrea	Take notes babe.
Dovid	I have a link in my website, and I wrote a fully guide, it’s pretty straight forward. I have a phrase that I like to use which is called Relationship oriented communication, so that’s the basic umbrella that we use to describe communication that won’t be between your football guys. Those guys you’re going to speak however you want, but when you’re speaking to your wife or she’s speaking to you, it’s called relationship-oriented communication. There’s a shift that occurs in those relationships is that  you must always strive to create a judgement free zone, so there’s no judgement in whatever I communicate to you and I am not implying or saying anything that would make you feel like I’m judging you, so that’s the number one principle. The second primary principle is that I take full responsibility for my own emotional state. These may sound complicated but they’re actually quite easy and straight forward. The first thing is creating a judgement free zone and there’s no way my statement will imply that I am judging you or you did something wrong or a bad person. The second thing is that I am fully responsible for my own emotions. When I can do those two things, it’s hard for you to be defensive because I haven’t accused you of anything. I am just informing you of a piece of information and that makes all the difference. If someone was defensive, then it wouldn’t be appropriate for the sentence I put forth. Do you want to comment on that?
Aindrea	No, it makes perfect sense. I don’t think it sounds scientific or confusing, it might help for you to elaborate for any listeners who don’t understand what being responsible for your emotions mean. I think I understand it, but could you expand on that a little bit.
Dovid	It means nothing that your partner did to you made you feel any way. It doesn’t mean you don’t feel a certain way, but it means that I am disassociating the relationship between what you did and how I feel. So that means if I feel something then that’s on me and I am letting you know that. I can give you some examples, it’s really quite straight forward. There’s 4 parts to this process, the first thing is we always use what is called eye statements. We take what the problem is, such as the towels on the floor example. Rich gets out the bathroom and leaves a towel on the floor, it’s been there for 17 hours and haven’t bothered picking it up. Instead of saying, Rich you’ve left the towel on the floor. What you want to say is Rich I noticed a towel on the floor. You’re not saying that he dropped it or his towel.
Rich	Would you say, I picked it up or would you leave it there?
Dovid	What you really want to do is stopping Rich from leaving the towels on the floor and share it with him that it’s annoying and bothersome that the towel was on the floor. Rich I noticed this towel on the floor, when I see it it makes me feel like, then you describe your feeling.
Aindrea	What about, I feel like you expect me to pick it up?
Dovid	No. It’s a feeling. What you just said is a thought because you are projecting on to him what you feel about him. Now there’s room for him to get defensive.
Rich	Now you know what I have been dealing with.
Aindrea	This has never happened. This is just me guessing how I would say it and I am worrying that’s wrong.
Dovid	You would say, Rich I noticed this towel on the floor, when I see it there, I feel frustrated because I love the room being clean and that means a lot to me. Don’t blame him and say that leaving towels on the floor is bad.
Rich	So, can we semi role play this. If I was not getting defensive and say well, I am busy why don’t you pick it up. Maybe there’s something I can respond to that’s not the positive response she would have hoped for in that situation. Where would you go from there?
Dovid	Okay, so she’s not finished with the sentence so let her finish. If he would be to interrupt that would encourage the partner to say let me finish. So again, the first part is that the description of the events, Rich I noticed this towel on the floor. There’s no accusation there. Number 2, a feeling. When I saw it there, I felt frustrated because I love a clean room and when I see it there it makes me feel sad. You are sharing a feeling, not accusing, you’re letting him know how you feel when this event happened. Then the third things would be a behavioural change. Do you think it would be possible if you were able to be more conscientious about picking up your towels? Is that something you are able to do. You are demanding that he does it, not forcing or shaming him. You are asking him nicely that he can do in the future now he knows how you feel about it.  The fourth piece is we always practice everything with a good will statement. So, before you started saying Rich, I noticed this towel on the floor, you would start with, I know you probably meant nothing by this, or I am sure you would never mean to hurt my feelings. So put it all together, Rich I am sure that you certainly didn’t mean to upset me or make a mess, but I did notice this towel on the floor, when I see it there I get frustrated because it means so much to me that the room remains clean. Would it be possible in the future for you to make an effort to pick up anything you see lying on the ground?
Rich	Love it. But what if I said, no I work long hours or why is it a big deal. Or I said that’s fine but didn’t change the behaviour.
Dovid	Okay let’s address one thing at a time. Defensiveness would be I didn’t do it; she’s not saying you did it.
Rich	So, we’re separating disagreement from defensiveness here?
Dovid	Look, your partner can ask you for a million things but that doesn’t mean you have to say yes. The answer could be no. Then you got to work it out with your partner, that may make her upset, but you don’t have to do everything your partner asks. The point here is that you are effectively communicating. You’re saying here I know you didn’t mean to hurt me, but I am feeling like this, and I am wondering if effectively you could change.
Rich	I think we’ve got on to a really important point which is, I wonder how many people end up in an argument from people responding reasonably but saying no and the other not wanting to hear it. I wonder what would be deemed as defensiveness or not getting the answer you were looking for and an argument stemming from that.
Aindrea	I can relate to that. I know there’s been times I wanted to raise a topic, something I know I need to be thoughtful to adopt a similar approach you’ve just laid out, to ensure I don’t come across as nasty, mean or judgemental, and then it gets the same reaction as to if I said why the hell are you doing this? It’s probably because it’s conversations that have occurred over tine again and again.
Rich	I could politely and reasonably say no I can’t do that because of these reasons. I think there might be a lot of people out there who don’t wanna hear the no if they are asking you a perfectly reasonable thing, and that causes an argument. The request was fine, the response was fine, but the requester didn’t want to hear no.
Dovid	I would have to disagree with both of you on this. I would say most of the problems that occur is that the way it’s said elicits a negative reaction. If my wife uses the right tone of voice and looks at me in the right way, I don’t know if there’s anything I wouldn’t do for her. Maybe if I was busy and she asked me to pick up some milk right now, I would have to say no. But we’re married and we like to serve each other and make each other happy. It’s an affirmation of good will, I love you, I care about you. I noticed this thing, this is how it’s making me feel, I was just wondering if we could change this. It’s not complicated at all, there’s no defensiveness, most of the time you’re going to get a yes. You might not get the exact yes you want.
Aindrea	Rich was just finding a loophole.
Rich	I was just wondering if the answer was a no with a valid reason, how Aindrea should respond to that? Is that an okay I take that on board, or I will try again next week? What would you do then?
Dovid	So that’s a completely different topic. Which is how do we show up when we don’t get what we want. My feelings aren’t hurt, he wasn’t mean to me, he’s not a bad person. I’m just not getting my needs met. That’s a completely different conversation, and I am happy to touch on it.
Rich	Just to clarify, it’s not getting the needs met from the request you had that was declined.
Dovid	It could be about anything, sex, money, kids, towels on the floor, how you’re treating your mother in law. The question is when Aindrea asks me something nicely and I am not defensive with my answer, then what happens?
Aindrea	Yeah.
Dovid	Okay. First of all, this is a big part of what my must have marriage pyramid is all about because if you are on your must have pyramid then you could say is this a priority for me. Now it means that we have a choice, do I escalate this properly or we could let it go. Those are our choices. Escalating it would look like, sharing your feelings and prioritising. So, having some sort of meeting about it, negotiate for something, like I get you don’t want to car-pool but I will do the shopping, you can strategize. Further conversation would be necessary about the issue, like a higher-level meeting about the situation. You would then have to have a respectful meeting. That can be done, it’s not that complicated. You guys talk about stuff all the time, but the charge has been taken out of it because no one’s defensive about it. It’s clear that there is an issue of towels on the floor, you may be busy Rich, maybe you could say I will do the dishes if you do the towels, I can’t be held responsible for that if I say yes and fail then you will get upset and we will fight. So, I have a better idea, I will do the dishes or mow the lawn and you take care of the towels, and she will say okay I can work with that. Then you’re dealing with the issue, not the defensiveness. Or the second option is that you let it go and just say picking up the towels is something I am willing to do for a happy marriage. I tried, I expressed myself, he’s not going to budge. I am not going to risk it all over this particular issue.
Rich	Yeah. I like that. What I like about this is you’re giving power to the person with the problem and who’s initiating that conversation and is worried about the response they’re going to get, will not feel empowered. I can be in control of this situation going into it. Which leads on to a question Aindrea had.
Aindrea	Yeah. One thing that we talk about, it comes up in a lot of different episodes and something we strive to work on as spouses, and that’s being more self-aware in our part of misunderstandings and arguments and taking responsibility for our actions. That would be me coming in and saying why the hell can’t you pick up your towels, I am so sick of this conversation, and he explodes. I need to be able to step back and go okay I have handled this badly. On the other side if I am phrasing it right, I am sure you didn’t mean to do anything to upset me, I did notice some towels, it makes me feel frustrated, would you be able to pick up the towels going forward?
Dovid	That’s perfect. Good for you.
Aindrea	I have learnt from the best. Most people are going to find that reasonable, it’s not difficult to pick up my towels, I’ll do that. That also requires a bit of self-awareness, that makes my wife sad because the rooms messy, I don’t want to upset her. It goes both ways and I think sometimes you have to take that introspection of I’ve done this, it’s caused X Y Z and learning from that, which is really hard. If you’re going into the situation and bringing it up, I have time to think about that.
Rich	The argument isn’t caused by the response but the instigation.
Aindrea	Essentially yeah, if it’s phrased wrong. But I think if everyone should strive to do that, it’s really difficult, but one thing I want to work on and like to try to do, it sounds really contradictory of what you’ve said and maybe it’s wrong, maybe we shouldn’t be trying to do this but is it fair to say that the things I do affect how they feel? And take ownership for that? Or is that taking too much on yourself?
Dovid	100% right. I agree. But let’s make a distinction. What I find to be the best combination is that I am 100% responsible for the way I feel, and I am 100% responsible for the way you feel. If we both adopt that attitude, then you’re going to have a great relationship. I would never look at my partner who’s upset me and go well I don’t know why you’re angry at me, I can’t make you angry, your anger is not anything to do with me. That wouldn’t be a sensitive statement. I can’t say that I have never said that, but I know that I shouldn’t have said that. The other point in general just for your own benefit on a deeper psychological level, the reason we get upset about something is usually touching something in us that hurts. So, let’s go back to the towel. You might be claiming you sleep better in a clean room, and that might be true, but let’s just pretend that there’s more to it, such as when Rich leaves the towel on the floor, you feel dishonoured. And you’ve felt dishonoured before, such as in 4th grade you were excluded from the cool girls’ club and you felt lost and that you didn’t have friends. Nobody pays attention to my needs; I am unloved and unwanted and all alone. And that’s what you see when you see the towel on the floor. These feelings start coming up for you. For your own self, forget about Rich, you need to realise that the towel triggered you and to question yourself why am I reacting on such a deep level. For me, I am allergic to any type of pain, I hate painful moments but the funnest part of painful moments is when you turn a corner and think oh my gosh I couldn’t care less about the towels now, it is the most exciting time of your life. You’re free. This is all your personal work; it’s got nothing to do with Rich.
Aindrea	I also think there’s something exciting about them moments of realisation. If you feel like you are in a position to share that with your partner, that I was thinking about this and it’s unearthed things, things that I didn’t realise affected me and I just wanted to let you know. Firstly, because to reiterate the fact you weren’t doing anything wrong with leaving towels on the floor was just a trigger. And secondly, maybe this knowledge about me is good for you to have, for you to know something you’ve been to or maybe if I react int his way in the future about something then you can understand. Maybe it’s dishes in the sink next time, but when you have those opportunities to learn about each other, it’s so powerful. We have had some of them moments recently. I have suffered with anxiety my whole life. Some things I don’t even know are a trait of mine because of anxiety, it’s been there for so long. We were talking about it once and I mentioned that sometimes doing a daily task is really difficult for me because of anxious thoughts. I had no idea that I had never told Rich that or it was different to anyone else because that’s all I know. Rich said a couple of days later than I never realised that this was so difficult for you because of your anxious thoughts and this gives me some really valuable information and helps me to understand you better. Those things are so valuable in a marriage, and it’s also nice to learn new things about each other.
Rich	It’s been 10 years us living together, and I knew before living together that Aindrea had anxiety. So, she had the assumption that I knew that the extent of it. I knew how bad it could be, but she never said how it affected her in daily life. I just knew what made her anxious when she told me she felt anxious, but not how deep it would go, how tired it would make her, not how laborious a simple task would become. It makes you realise, that even after 10 years, that’s something you deal with every day that I didn’t know.
Aindrea	It can be a moment for you in this position to look back on certain behaviours you’ve seen. So, this is why you did this, or felt this way, or acted this way.
Rich	It highlights why communication is so important. It’s an example of how something can become a sticking point where you have something in your relationship that you keep arguing about and either of you can’t budge on it. One of you feels like the other hasn’t got the information, but the other one has no idea that there’s more information to be had. Until all that is communicated suddenly the other person isn’t an arsehole, but they just didn’t know. Then they can apologise and make the effort now they know. You would imagine me as the husband of 10 years to know everything, but I don’t.
Aindrea	You can only work with what information you’re given and can observe. If that’s not shown or communicated effectively on my part, there’s not much you could have done with that.
Rich	When you’re in that anxious state, you’re not expected to be highly communicative anyway.
Aindrea	Yeah. But I think on that example, I have noticed changes in how I express how I am feeling when I am anxious.
Rich	Just on that, Dovid you said earlier on, safe space and no judgement. You know that exists here. But if that conversation happened 9 years ago, it would have been a nice proving ground, that you could have said that, I responded in the appropriate manner, then I made changes in the future. That demonstrates to you that this is a safe space for you to share how you’re feeling, and it will be responded to properly.
Aindrea	Them situations can be a catalyst for those positive behaviours going forward. So now when I am doing something, I am more aware of it if it’s tied to my anxiety, then I stop and reflect why I am doing that and what else that might be affecting, then I communicate it more often with Rich, and then Rich is very understanding of it because he now has this new knowledge on how I operate and how my brain works and how things can get blown out of proportion in my head because of anxiety. Perhaps it could help people to talk about this, this is something that just came up, it wasn’t a sticking point or an argument we were having, it was just an observation I had about how I dealt with something. But if there is something that is triggering past traumas, it just helps make things go smoother going forward. What makes people so defensive is they feel that I am responsible for this, you think I’ve done this horrible thing. But there’s almost like a third-party thing, the girls being mean to be in school, my anxiety, it gives you something common to work against together, a common enemy.
Dovid	That’s a great point.
Rich	Yeah. It’s not me against you.
Aindrea	It’s us against them. You’re a team. If you can identify that the problem isn’t between us, it’s these other feelings, traumas. And then you can have a unified front and work through it together. It’s something we are recently learning on that side of things, which has been really interesting.
Dovid	That’s wonderful. My wife has this new phrase, started about a year ago, where she would come into my office or when I got back from work, she would give me a whole list of things that she was concerned about. Sometimes I handled it like a champ then sometimes I was like woah back off or I would start an argument about the details of the things she was nervous about. Finally, she did exactly what you were talking about Aindrea, she said that underlying these lists that I attack you with is fear, I am afraid, I have insecurities that are not being address. So, when you see me behaving like this, rather than being upset or defensive or pushy, just ask me what are you afraid of. I have started doing that. All of a sudden, this big bad angry woman who greets me at the door is turning into this cuddly teddy bear that’s just got some fears. Now it’s me and her working on what her fears are, and it’s much easier for me to deal with. It’s a completely different energy. I applaud you for having self-awareness and bringing it to Rich’s attention to create more peace in your family.
Rich	Yeah that’s what’s so nice about marriage. Because it is long term you have that time for things to unfold and you can make mistakes and adjust. It’s just this constant learning about who your partner is and what motivates them and worries them like you said. You have the time to correct, which is great.
Aindrea	Yeah. Dovid one of the things you talked about in the previous episodes is talking about your Twitter escapades that you liked to talk about men working on their marriage and what men can do and shying away from the toxic masculinity thing that’s happening. We don’t like that. But I think one thing that husbands can do that is so valuable is like you said you were doing for your wife, she said to you this is what it is, and I need you to do this. Women can get really frustrated with men, not to gender stereotype but I think is quite true, mean like to problem solve and women like to get things off their chest and vent. Rich does something that’s really good for me where that comes in handy when I have had an obsessive thought about something very clear and he will say what are you worried about with this, and I say I’m worried about this, then he says when that happens we will do this. He had an answer for every single what if that eventually I got so tired with these scenarios.
Rich	I had to learn how to phrase it. Some people you could say what’s the worst that can happen and then they will say oh yes that’s not a big deal. Whereas Aindrea will have a lot to say.
Aindrea	I have a lot of them.
Dovid	Everything ends in world war 3.
Aindrea	I’m good at catastrophising things.
Rich	I am conscious of your time here Dovid, so if you have any closing thoughts on what we’ve been talking about?
Dovid	Yeah. I do enjoy speaking with you two. Do you guys wanna add a little bit on what we were saying about marriage and you mentioned the long term? You two don’t have children is that correct?
Aindrea	No, we don’t.
Dovid	Okay. I just want to share with your listeners and you two that the journey, not only is it an infinite journey to understand the depth of your partners emotional worlds. Like you mentioned, you keep peeling back layers. But also, life has a cycle to it, there’s different things that occur to couples through the course of their marriage that bring out brand new aspects about who they are as a person, which you may be shielded from till those things happen. For instance, the birth of a child. There were things I learnt about my wife when the baby was born that I had no access to before, that she didn’t even know. A sickness that could happen, my mother got terminally ill and my father’s personality changed and the way he related to my mother completely shifted. Life has a way. We tend to get in our little zone where we’re happy, and life has a way of bringing lots of joy and also challenges that goes beyond what we’re used to. Marriage is not only about facing what’s happening to us right now but it’s also about the challenges that are going to happen in the future. So, developing these skills are your ability to have a broader perspective on the journey you take with your partner, it’s a healthy mindset to keep in mind, to keep focusing on, there’s going to be many things you don’t find out about your partner till they actually happen, and your partner may not know how they are going to respond to things till they happen. When you take a step back and say this is a long haul, this is my soul mate, you have a more mature and accepting perspective.
Aindrea	Yeah. I 100% agree. We haven’t had to deal with sickness. One day there will be loss of parents and things like that. Those things aside, they are really challenging things but there are also smaller challenges, day to day stuff that maybe aren’t as trying on you as a person and as a couple, as other things. Trying to look at the things you’re discovering about your partner in a positive way can be really thrilling. I learnt new things about Rich, maybe it was a character trait or distaste for something, or way reacts to something. I just think this is amazing.
Rich	One thing she learnt recently was that I make faces at the dog. He was getting his vaccinations, but I made a face at him.
Aindrea	I was like what are you are doing. I had never seen him doing this and we have had the dog for 8 years.
Dovid	Very cute.
Aindrea	It’s those little insights, amidst with the big stuff like challenging marriage conversations. But it’s seeing and observing things about your partner, whether they’re big or insignificant. Sometimes you just seen something and it’s something different that you didn’t know.
Rich	This has been wonderful. Thank you for joining us again. We will have all the links to you, your website, Twitter, in our show notes.
Dovid	Yeah. I have article on communication so if anyone is interested.
Rich	We will 100% share that in our notes. And hopefully we can make it a trilogy at some point.
Dovid	Great. Looking forward. One day you two will be guests on my podcast.
Aindrea	Yes. Thank you for your time and have a great rest of your day.
Dovid	My pleasure, you two take care.
Aindrea	Bye.