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E75: Coronavirus and divorce

This week, we address the concerning news that divorce rates are on the rise because of the coronavirus outbreak – why this might be happening, how to use this time to invest in your marriage rather than becoming a statistic, and share helpful resources for nourishing your marriage during these really weird and trying times. 

For more—
Listen to our episode with Tony and Alisa from ONE Extraordinary Marriage.
Listen to our Episode with Dovid Feldman

From Long distance to marriage – Episode 75 transcript

Aindrea	Hi everyone and welcome to episode 75 from Long Distance to Marriage. This week we are covering something pretty topical again, coronavirus and specifically how quarantine is affecting divorce rates. This is something you really wanted to talk about because it’s something you wondered about to begin with. How are people going to cope with being on top of each other, relationships aside, siblings, parents, children. Everyone’s living like sardines right now, despite the size of your house, being with each other all the time is a stress. So, we were having a look at this and I found an article in the Financial Times. There were no statistics, I really wanted to find some numbers, but I think it’s too early for that. But the strain of life under lockdown sparks divorce surge in China, and more than a dozen cities found a surge in divorce filings. Obviously, China was hit hardest first so that’s where we are going to see things start then they will trickle into Italy, Spain, then here and America. But some of the things in the article was interesting. This particular woman being interviewed saw that all her husband did was play video games, she was taking care of the house, raising the children. One of the children wet the bed and he just walked out of the room, and she was left to deal with it. She was preparing the meals, everything. As soon as lock down stuff was being lifting, she filed for a divorce because she thought like screw this.
Rich	Yeah, I know one of the things I mentioned the other was that during normal times, a lot of couples spend a lot of time not together. It’s not necessarily intention. I think we are unusual that we spend all of our time outside of work together. There’s a lot of couples where the guy goes to the pub after work every day. Business might mean there’s travel or events in the evening. If you’ve got children, obviously they’re taking up time and you’re taking them to all their activities. Or one of you goes to church and the other one doesn’t. There are multiple reasons why you’re out of the house and separate. For us, a lot of this is not that different. We’re working from home, but in separate rooms. We see each other a bit more in the day but in terms of when we’re home and not working, we’re very used to the other one being there. It’s similar to the empty nest syndrome, where the last of the children grows up and leaves home, then you’ve got the older married couple that are on their own for the first time in 25/30 years potentially. Now they realise, we haven’t been focusing on our relationship, all our time has been spent focusing on the kids. You hear all the time that married couples don’t go on dates anymore. You just have whatever routine you’ve got, but you’re not prioritising building your relationship.  Then you realise that you have nothing in common, we don’t spend any time together, you’re irritating me, and then they get a divorce. It’s the same with this, suddenly you’re spending more time together, and it’s also a stressful situation. You might be thinking I am around you a lot more which is hard to deal with but also, I am stressed, or you’re stressed, and I can’t deal with it.
Aindrea	There is a lot of stress that comes with it. People’s jobs are being affected, early on finding food and toilet paper was difficult. Essential things that we need were impossible to find, and that makes people frazzled.
Rich	I think everyone needs a rock. So, if you’re the person that needs a rock and your partner isn’t being it, that’s not helpful.
Aindrea	You take turns being the rock, don’t you? In different points of your relationship.
Rich	Some people do, some people don’t. But I think if you are worried and then you’ve got nothing in your life to say this is stable, you will help me get through this. If you’re thinking oh my god, I am panicking and you’ve got to take care of this other person because they really can’t cope with it, some people rise to that but other people go that confirms that this is all going to shit and I am right to be panicked and stressed and then you get lost in your own thoughts.
Aindrea	Yeah. But I think it’s important to not be a part of this statistic of relationships falling apart if it’s not for the right reason. Obviously if you’re like that couple in China where the woman was doing everything, and he was being useless.
Rich	On the surface, he sounds like a dick, but we don’t know him. That may have been his way of coping.
Aindrea	I think from the article, it was more than it reinforced. I think he was always like that. Some people rise to certain occasions, you may think we are going to be together, there’s no reason for him not to help me, he doesn’t have distractions of work and maybe he really will help, then they still don’t. That’s a concern.
Rich	I think it’s a motivation thing. Some people will work, not strictly a job, but think of work as anything, work around the house, with kids, moving the lawn. Just getting off your arse. Some people do that for pride, or they feel like it’s in them to do that, and some people do it because they feel like they have to. They go to work to get paid. As soon as a pandemic comes along and there’s an excuse then they may sit down. That may be the first time you’re seeing that. There are other things. We had a comment on Instagram from one of our listeners that said that their marriage is in jeopardy because of the channel restrictions. If you’re in a long-distance relationship, we’re going to talk about this more in next weeks or the week after episode, that’s obviously a bit different. So about that comment in particular is that they were applying for a VISA which has certain income requirements and saving requirements, but with people being furloughed or made redundant then that would be in jeopardy or you’d like to think that they would take into account that you were in the requirements so proves that you can meet them.
Aindrea	I mean a lot of places aren’t allowing immigration to happen right now.
Rich	Yeah. I think if you’re in a long-distance situation, then the particulars are going to be a bit different to what we are going to be talking about in this episode, this is going to more about when you’re living together. But next week or the week after, we’re going to be doing an episode of dealing with the unknown factors, which is going to be like no one planned for a pandemic to appear.
Aindrea	But I think if you are a couple who doesn’t spend that much time together. It could be for different reasons, hobbies, we have friends who have different social circles, they are very social with their friends.
Rich	I think part of it that’s made us close is that you are an immigrant, you don’t have lifelong friends here. I am sure if you did things would be different. But also, we are both home people.
Aindrea	If we’re out and about, we’re usually out together.
Rich	Yeah, we do like each other which helps.
Aindrea	Yeah. I think don’t be a part of the statistic of relationships falling apart due to this, if there’s no reason to and you can do something about it, if you are one of them couples. Rich you were just saying about these couples who have had children and now have an empty nest, that can have a huge effect and it’s a chance for you to get to know each other again and work on things. But even if you haven’t got an empty nest, if you’re working from home with kids, or like us who don’t have kids, whatever your situation, this is a chance to find ways to reconnect.
Rich	Yeah. I always think it’s really valuable to try remember why you got with someone because everyone changes but they’re still in there, you still have memories. But just today we walked past our first flat, so you can think of some trips down memory lane.
Aindrea	Yeah that’s something we never do; our first apartment is only three miles away from where we live now. We lived there for 6 months, 8/9 years ago. We moved over here with Richs mum and stepdad. We then got our own place and it was this beautiful apartment in this beautiful neighbourhood looking over a golf course. There are some good memories, our landlord was awful so that ruined it. We took our dog to the vet today, and obviously because of social distancing they came down and collected the dog, so we decided to go on a walk and it was nice to point out things, like do you remember this? Just enjoy that time really.
Rich	Yeah one of the things I mention quite a lot on this, is how marriage becomes attrition. Not mundane but when you reach a point when you don’t get along, it’s easy to get into a fuck you mindset all the time, and you don’t wanna give an inch or let them win, and it just gets nasty. You here about people who go through divorce and the kids get used as weapons. Like why can’t more people just think you know what I don’t hate you, I don’t know how we got to this place, but we have a history together and we got together for a reason. You both don’t necessarily deserve that. I think if you’re in this place where you’re finding this difficult, it obviously depends if you’re dealing with cheating then that’s different but if you’re struggling to cope being around each other all the time and not really getting on when you’re home together. One thing we have noticed is that we are getting through a lot of dishes, the house needing more maintenance because we’re hear all the time. It is exposing some cracks. Spend some time, figure it out. Think this is why I love you; this is what I love about our marriage. If you can’t go to a restaurant because things are closed, carve out some time, have a little candle lit dinner at home and just talk. This is what’s bothering me, say it’s the house that’s getting messier and I am dealing with it while you are on your game, just have that and bring it out into the open.
Aindrea	I can relate, I am finding it really hard. When we best connect it’s when we’re going out for the day or going out for dinner or go to our favourite mall, have some lunch, see a movie. Even if it’s just a mini adventure, that’s what we first did when we first got together, we saw new places together. You showed me England, and I showed America to you. I think new experiences together were things that really cemented that, those early days for us. So now when all we do is stay home and cook and clean and work and clean and work and do dishes then more dishes, it’s hard and I get it. This last week or so, I’ve been getting a bit aggravated. Maybe it’s not all because of you, but there’s certain things that we spoke about, like it would help if you did this. One thing I told you, that men in particular need to know in and some women, if you notice that your partner is feeling aggravated, being a bit snappy, it’s not really helpful to snap back or to make shitty comments about it, it’s more helpful and constructive to say, hey what’s going on, what’s causing you to feel this way, can I Help? I think the hard thing is that means you’re being the bigger person and that’s hard to do sometimes. If someone is snappy to you, you’re crammed together in this one place, you can’t go anywhere, it’s hard to be the bigger person because you’re frustrated and fed up about things too, but someone has to just take responsibility.
Rich	Yeah. It’s a simple one to remember on that point. When people are snapping and getting like that, and we want to react to it, you’re reacting to the symptom of what’s going on. They’re doing that for a reason. It’s hard because for me it really gets my back up immediately and I have got to calm my anger down, which is hard. Something else is have sex. It’s so good. People always talk about make up sex, and it’s probably the quickest way to reconnect. Everyone knows it’s not a magic pill, you can have sex then an hour later be arguing again. It makes you connect a bit more, allows you to talk more.  It’s a great way to connect and starting that process. It still takes work and effort, but it just puts you in a great place.
Aindrea	That is very true but it’s not always as easy as that, especially for women. I know if you had been annoying me and I had been really short with you, that would be the last thing I would wanna do.
Rich	Yeah sure but maybe you’d be the one. You may have been acting that way because you’ve been stressed or dealing with something. So, you maybe you’d be the one to initiate that, it would come from you.
Aindrea	Yeah but if you’re pissed off with someone then that’s the last thing you would wanna do.
Rich	That’s true. But this episode is saying at some point you’re going to have to draw a line in the sand, be the person to step up and say this marriage is important to me, I love you, I want to make this work, despite how you’re currently making me feel.
Aindrea	I think that’s dangerous though. It can make people feel like when you’re disappointed or frustrated with something your partner has done, then you need to disregard that and be the better person.
Rich	You don’t need to make a big song and dance about it.
Aindrea	But people will internalise that.
Rich	If people are going to internalise that, then that’s a problem in itself.
Aindrea	Yeah but if you feel that if you’re trying to talk to your partner about something and it doesn’t make a difference then you’re going to internalise that, because at some point you’ll feel like there’s not much point talking about it.
Rich	What are you talking about saying not making a difference?
Aindrea	For example, that couple in China, all he did was play video games.
Rich	Well fuck that guy.
Aindrea	I’m not saying these specific people, but that situation. He’s not helping, he’s not doing this, she’s saying she needs help and he’s not doing it. And then it’s like okay let’s fix this, let’s go to bed and have sex.
Rich	But that’s not what I’m saying.
Aindrea	That’s how I interpreted it.
Rich	Why?
Aindrea	Because that’s how my brain interpreted it.
Rich	Well go back a few steps.
Aindrea	You said that sex is a great way to connect. I agreed. Then I said however if you’re pissed off then that’s the last thing you wanna do sometimes is have sex.
Rich	Yeah well don’t do it in that moment and we’re not talking about that guy who as lucky he got married in the first place. We are talking about the peoples whose priorities are saving the marriage and reconnecting, a great way to do that is to have sex and have physical intimacy.
Aindrea	But what do you do, when someone feels like they can’t be intimate in that way because they’re so frustrated and upset over things that are happening in the marriage?
Rich	The point I’m making is, which is true, that sex is a great way to connect and put you back in a good place. It’s not a fixer. I think if you’re like that guy in Chine, I don’t wanna crucify this guy because we don’t know him, and his wife might not be a reliable source. But if we are using him as an example, then yeah there’s probably something else happening, I’m not suggesting sex is going to fix everything relationship. But if you’re frustrated with each other and finding it hard to look beyond the day to day irritation, then sex is brilliant. It’s obviously not going to fix every relationship issue.
Aindrea	No. And I don’t think I was implying that’s what you were saying. But I just think it’s a bit more complicated than that and everyone’s situation is different. I am not talking about a sexless marriage where things are falling apart. But if you’re rubbing each other the wrong way because of isolation and stuff, yeah it sounds nice to wanna jump under the covers  and if you can get to that point then it’s gonna make a difference, but if you’re so annoyed that you don’t wanna have sex then there’s gonna have to be some conversations that happen first.
Rich	Maybe they do. But the whole point of this conversation is that you need to look beyond that moment. You’re not going to move beyond that moment without saying I need to move beyond. You’re not going to sit there and magically say I am okay now. You’re gonna have to make that decision. If you wanna be extreme about it, there’s people who don’t like having sex at all, so this isn’t good advice for them. But we are talking about general situations for general people, it’s a good way of connecting if you’re not just getting on. If you’re just irritated with each other, can’t stop arguing, the makeup sex cliché is a thing.
Aindrea	But if some couples do need to clear the air before they feel ready for that, I think talking is another really good way to reconnect.
Rich	Talking can be. But we’ve also done the episode about going on beyond communication. When you’ve done enough talking and the talking causes arguments. We’ve been in this position back in that first apartment, when you could say the most obnoxious thing in the world, and it would be taken the wrong way and you become sick of the other person talking. Like with the sex it can be really good but there are situations where it isn’t. I think in that situation that’s when the sex can be really good because it’s just like shut the fuck up, this will make us feel good, then it resets things and you can start to talk a bit better. If you’re able to talk and you’re able to talk in a way that doesn’t feel judgemental and open, then it’s incredible powerful. But equally you have to be in a position when you both feel relaxed to hear what the other person has to say.
Aindrea	You are totally right. There might be something where you’re not jumping straight to sex but one of them non-verbal things to communication that you really love them no matter what. That might be doing a job that they hate around the house, getting the kids out of their way for an hour, making them a really nice dinner, getting to a store to try and find their favourite snack. That’s all I was trying to say earlier.
Rich	All that comes back to the same issue you’re going to have about sex. Sex is very different from the reasons you wouldn’t want to do it. Like I don’t like you, I don’t wanna have sex with you, I don’t wanna do anything for you, I don’t wanna do anything other than argue, because I don’t like you. But if you’re able to have sex, you will feel better afterwards.
Aindrea	Yeah exactly. I am not disagreeing with that.
Rich	But on that, I’m using sex, it might be a bit broad. If this is a step too far, you could suggest watching a film, under a blanket and snuggle up. Maybe you could say I don’t wanna initiate sex, but I will let you go down on me. Just as a first step. Maybe it’s why don’t you give me a massage tonight.
Aindrea	Take a shower together.
Rich	Yeah, just initiate some physical contact. If sex will maybe take a week to get to. But equally you are at the point where you can’t even bring yourself to have sex with your spouse, it probably predates to quarantine.
Aindrea	Yeah. I think maybe I was interpreting what you said a bit black and white as in if you’re not getting along then go have sex. But if you’re talking about now. Coming up behind someone when they’re doing the dishes, hugging them from behind and saying hey let’s take a shower.
Rich	Yeah that’s what I was saying about letting them go down. Say you can’t bring yourself to have sex with them, equally you’re not going to feel inclined to giving oral sex, so think they will probably be up for having sex so as a starting point I will let them go down on me. But the point is that it doesn’t have to be 0 to 100 straight away.
Aindrea	Yeah. I think that’s how I was interpreting it, and I thought it was expecting a lot from someone who was feeling unhappy at the moment. It’s not in general in your relationship. If you’re unhappy in your relationship to probably predates before this situation, and this situation is just exaggerating that. But it’s leading in the right direction. It could be let’s have a shower together or I’ll sit on the end of the bath while you’re in it and give you a massage. We all know where those things tend to leave anyway but it’s that action that softens the resolve and breaks down the exterior shelf you’ve been hardening towards someone because you have felt frustrated in general. Those are good icebreakers doing things like that. Sorry I definitely agree with that.
Rich	And on that note, if you’re feeling okay but your partner is stressed or wound up. Equally giving them a hand essentially, can really help them relax.
Aindrea	Giving them a hand sexually, what do you mean by that? Serving them?
Rich	Yeah serving them.
Aindrea	Let me take you to bed?
Rich	Or you don’t worry about me tonight, I will take care of you. Orgasms are really powerful.
Aindrea	They are. They make things seem a bit better.
Rich	The common thing we talk about really is that you get locked in this place where there’s friction of I don’t wanna do this for you because you’re not doing this for me. But them grievances to one side, draw the line and say you’ll be the one. I will cook dinner, I will initiate this, I will give you a massage, I will please you in the bedroom. Just take that first step to make the other person feel appreciated, they know you still love them, if there’s all this worry about the pandemic and everything else, it can take their mind off it. It’s quite grounding to feel loved and taken care of. I am a big believer of the circle of control thing. You can watch the news all day, hear what the politicians say, read the headlines, and think that’s terrifying there’s nothing I can do about it, and that’s true. But you can control things within your household, how much of the news you watch, how much time you spend together, how much effort you are putting into the relationship. All that sort of stuff, that is your circle of control.
Aindrea	That’s a really good point. But I want to take a step back to something you said a minute ago about feeling loved and taken care of. Obviously, love is always important, but I think right now in the midst of this, feeling like you have someone to take care of you is huge. Think about the situation right now, there’s things we can’t access that we need, we suddenly can’t go out and do the things that make us feel taken care of, like a hobby, going to the gym. For a lot of people that’s how they take care of themselves and their mental health. That may not be something that can access right now. For some people it might be being social and seeing lots of friends, which is really important for your mental health. That’s not accessible right now. You can have video chats, and texts, and facetime but that only does so much. Physical touch is huge. Feeling good and taken care of, right now that’s very limited to the people within your four walls. Some people are living alone right now and have nobody, maybe a dog or maybe not pet at all. It’s all very unknown and just that feeling of this person will take care of me goes a really long way and can make people feel a lot safer in all of this. This is the closest our generation or last few generations, since world war 2, have felt like this is a different type of survival than what we normally deal with. I just want to touch on how important that is really. If you are struggling of ways to reconnect, we would want you to direct you to some guests we’ve had recently, Tony and Alisa from Extraordinary marriage. They have tonnes of resources.
Rich	We are big fans of them. The episode we did focused on, funnily enough this was before quarantine, spoke about dates you could do at home and cheap dates. Some of it does involve going out on a budget but we also did at home date ideas. So, as a starting point, listen to that episode, it’s on our website, whatever you’re listening to this on, and you can find that. Implement some of that. We spoke about our favourite dates, their favourite dates. As a starting point on that new journey of liking each other again potentially, I think that’s really helpful. But visit their website Extradoniarymarriage.com and they’ve got free guides on questions to ask each other, how to connect, how to improve things in the bedroom, sexually questions to ask each other. They also do marriage counselling with Alisa. They’ve got a membership programme so you can talk to other people. We’re not getting any kickback for mentioning this, but we are mentioning it because we think it’s really helpful. Their whole set up is on improving relationships in general. They’ve got a lot of free content on there which you can download. They have emails for sex challenges and everything else. So, if you are struggling. You could be really deep into this and want to come out the other side, or you maybe just starting to see that you’re at the beginning of what could be trouble. That’s the ideal time to nip it into the bud and I think that would be a great way to do that.
Aindrea	Yeah. I think there’s a lot.
Rich	It’s episode 66 that they did with us.
Aindrea	We will put a link in the show notes to the episode. It would be really sad to see marriages breaking down right now and divorce rates spike because people who nourish their marriage and take care of it then you get into a situation where something like this happens and it falls apart. Something we’ve always said is that marriage is a lot of work and I think anyone who has a successful marriage will say that. You have to put a lot into it. I think the problem right now is that there’s no way to hide from that. When we’re busy, working, seeing other people, there’s excuses to not put that work in. Right now there isn’t really, some people are still working, but for the large majority of people who are now out of work, or working from home, you do have a lot more time together and maybe that’s something that scares people, having no excuses.
Rich	I think a lot of people who never nourished the marriage to begin with, then this is exposing that. You can go a long way just thinking we get along it’s fine, I only see you an hour a day. It could be that it’s not that you’re not getting on, but you feel more like roommates. There’s no romance anymore. It’s not strictly just arguments and friction, it could be anything. One Extraordinary Marriage with Tony and Alisa would be a great place to start. Equally the episode we did with Dovid, episode 47, who we will be talking with again soon. On that notes, we will be talking to him next week. If you have any questions that you would like to ask a therapist, then let us know. Send us an email at hello@longdistancetomarriage.com or send us a message on Instagram or Twitter. Get in touch, tell us what you’re dealing with and ask what Dovid would do or what you could do differently. Let us know. But the episode we did previously, episode 47, dealing with criticism, is probably a highly relevant to a lot of people now.
Aindrea	I just want to say what we move on, particularly submitting questions for upcoming episodes, any questions are welcome but particularly Dovid is more focused on men and stepping out of that stereotypical toxic masculinity persona, so male listeners might have particular questions about that, or females asking about men.
Rich	Yeah, if we go back to the couple we mentioned in China. If you’re one of those people asking how I would encourage him to put down the controller without criticising him, maybe that’s your question. Ask it. In episode 47, what we dove into, is your partner may have a lot of traits that you may find hard to deal with, how do you get them to maybe change without criticising. We went through some examples, some of it came out as I can live with that and I will focus on other things, but then others that you can’t live with then this how you approach it. I think that will be helpful for a lot of people right now in quarantine. Things you usually can get on with is now under the microscope, it’s bigger.
Aindrea	Yeah and there’s nothing distracting you. It’s one thing if you’re at work all day and you come home and your partner has left a mess, you may think whatever I will clean it up. But right now, we’re living in a little dome, some stuff can start to drive you mad. Part of it is you taking responsibility from acknowledging that normally it wouldn’t upset me as much as it is right now. Part of it is finding a way to bring it up to your partner, and your partner being big enough to not take it as a criticism. It takes both people, not just one of you to be the bigger person. If you’re being the bigger person, the other person can still react badly in a shitty way that. Makes your whole gesture move.
Rich	It all starts with you answering the question of is this marriage important to me, can I turn the ship around. If the answer is yes, then it’s just the case of doing what needs to be done. If you have enjoyed this episode, we would appreciate it if you could leave us a review or whatever your favourite podcast platform is. Our favourite is iTunes. It really helps us with the algorithms and helping people to find us. We would appreciate it if you could leave us a nice rating or review. And also follow us on social media. Just search for long distance to marriage or mrmrsdistance. Our website is longdistancetomarriage.com. We are also on YouTube now if you search Long Distance to Marriage. All the podcast episodes on there, nothing fancier yet, expect the episode with Jordan Syatt, that’s a video. So yeah talk to us, let us know what you’re dealing, especially if you have any unique ways on how you’re dealing with the stress, if you have any questions for Dovid. We hope this has been helpful.
Aindrea	Yeah and of course, if there are any other topics that aren’t related to this right now or anything else, you’d like us to cover, we would love to try and help. Have a good week guys. We look forward to hearing some questions from you. Bye.